Okay, but then can we hold space and even love women who hate women, or are we supposed to hate them also, thereby continuing the cycle of misogyny? What do you suggest as the best solution here?
A great point! Haven't even thought about it like that. I think we need to provide spaces for women to come back together without pressure and understand why we often behave in the way we do.
Perhaps it's cliche, but when we point a finger, we have other fingers pointing back at ourselves. All this to say that whenever we are offering critique and judgments (and I'm not saying that all judging is bad - we need to discern and set boundaries, and judgment is required for that), we have to be very clear about what shadowy parts of ourselves we are actually seeing and projecting on to others, otherwise, we will only continue the vicious cycle. Are you familiar with the work of Anne Wilson Schaef? She has the illuminating thoughts about institutionalized codependency (which are trauma responses to the patriarchy). If I can see that there are women who hate women, I can ask myself a few questions: does that upset me? If so, why? Is there a part of me that is being reflected? Or is the potential for that there? And, can I see that their behavior is a trauma response? And if so, can I make space for some compassion for them instead of vilifying them, and thereby continuing the cycle of us all turning on each other for men's/daddy's approval? And finally, can I know that any of what appears is actually true? Is it true that they hate other women, or is that my own projection? Is it possible that I am wrong? Why or why not? It might not be in alignment for me to live the life of a "trad wife", for instance, but just like I want (and deserve) the respect to live the life I choose, ought I not to afford the same to others? It's a long thread to unravel...
I have definitely witnessed my fair share of ‘girl, the call is coming from inside the house!’ Internalised misogyny - especially when it comes to stories of sexual assault - so this definitely hit a nerve
A lot of it in the business world too where the women who get to the top take on typically ‘male’ traits. It’s so bizarre.
I think finding a group of non-competitive supportive women (for me, it’s at my pole & hoop studio but also within the content world - as a lot of us do happen to be women!) can do wonders because when we do support each other it’s genuinely magical
I have had that experience of women in my work where I have just felt completely unsupported, which is a shame because female creative directors are hard to come by anyway and so more disheartening to find that they aren’t on women’s side. (Promoting men over women consistently and favouring men for work/outings, also asking about family plans in interviews which isn’t on and complete unhelpfulness when it comes to support after starting a family..
Although, on the other hand I have also experienced some lovely women mentors and have some great cheerleaders in my life who are mostly women, so I think it is maybe unfair of me to assume because they are women they would be on my side. It just hurts more when they aren’t. Like we want them to feel responsible for lifting other women up but it’s not just down to them but it would be nice if they wanted to.
Women who bring school yard bullying tacticsa to the workplace are the absolute worst, especially when it's women in senior roles. I've also met some wonderful women who uplift anf support, I think this is the kind of girl/woman I am striving to be and raise my daughter to be too.
"Even anecdotally, the worst working environments I have ever been in have been (mostly) orchestrated by women. Hushed talk of Slimming World and layers of gossip meant that if you didn’t fit the cookie-cutter mould to be like them, then you were prey."
I wonder whether anyone has made that connection with how rough it can be for women in workplaces, how you can internalise that spite and hatred and bullying exhibited towards you and, if you already struggle with doubting yourself and being nasty to yourself, that compounding effect of other women doing it leaves you feeling totally numb and battling through wondering what you did/what you should do differently/why they hate you etc, and that can be sufficiently traumatising to prevent someone from feeling able to apply for or take on certain jobs, even if they might be otherwise interested or well-suited. And that it's a large factor in why many of us ultimately go freelance - that's certainly been the case of me, at least.
I absolutely think it comes down to the fact that it's really hard to be a women from day one, both in school and at work and even in social situations. So, for some women, it's a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality, and they turn into the bullies to stop being a target themselves.
Oh definitely, that's a big part of why I went freelance and, fortunately, I have only really met wonderful and supportive women since going out on my own!
Okay, but then can we hold space and even love women who hate women, or are we supposed to hate them also, thereby continuing the cycle of misogyny? What do you suggest as the best solution here?
A great point! Haven't even thought about it like that. I think we need to provide spaces for women to come back together without pressure and understand why we often behave in the way we do.
Perhaps it's cliche, but when we point a finger, we have other fingers pointing back at ourselves. All this to say that whenever we are offering critique and judgments (and I'm not saying that all judging is bad - we need to discern and set boundaries, and judgment is required for that), we have to be very clear about what shadowy parts of ourselves we are actually seeing and projecting on to others, otherwise, we will only continue the vicious cycle. Are you familiar with the work of Anne Wilson Schaef? She has the illuminating thoughts about institutionalized codependency (which are trauma responses to the patriarchy). If I can see that there are women who hate women, I can ask myself a few questions: does that upset me? If so, why? Is there a part of me that is being reflected? Or is the potential for that there? And, can I see that their behavior is a trauma response? And if so, can I make space for some compassion for them instead of vilifying them, and thereby continuing the cycle of us all turning on each other for men's/daddy's approval? And finally, can I know that any of what appears is actually true? Is it true that they hate other women, or is that my own projection? Is it possible that I am wrong? Why or why not? It might not be in alignment for me to live the life of a "trad wife", for instance, but just like I want (and deserve) the respect to live the life I choose, ought I not to afford the same to others? It's a long thread to unravel...
I have definitely witnessed my fair share of ‘girl, the call is coming from inside the house!’ Internalised misogyny - especially when it comes to stories of sexual assault - so this definitely hit a nerve
A lot of it in the business world too where the women who get to the top take on typically ‘male’ traits. It’s so bizarre.
I think finding a group of non-competitive supportive women (for me, it’s at my pole & hoop studio but also within the content world - as a lot of us do happen to be women!) can do wonders because when we do support each other it’s genuinely magical
I'm so glad I found your newsletter!
Thank you so much! ♥️
I have had that experience of women in my work where I have just felt completely unsupported, which is a shame because female creative directors are hard to come by anyway and so more disheartening to find that they aren’t on women’s side. (Promoting men over women consistently and favouring men for work/outings, also asking about family plans in interviews which isn’t on and complete unhelpfulness when it comes to support after starting a family..
Although, on the other hand I have also experienced some lovely women mentors and have some great cheerleaders in my life who are mostly women, so I think it is maybe unfair of me to assume because they are women they would be on my side. It just hurts more when they aren’t. Like we want them to feel responsible for lifting other women up but it’s not just down to them but it would be nice if they wanted to.
Women who bring school yard bullying tacticsa to the workplace are the absolute worst, especially when it's women in senior roles. I've also met some wonderful women who uplift anf support, I think this is the kind of girl/woman I am striving to be and raise my daughter to be too.
Very worthwhile topic to scratch the surface of.
This part really says it all:
"Even anecdotally, the worst working environments I have ever been in have been (mostly) orchestrated by women. Hushed talk of Slimming World and layers of gossip meant that if you didn’t fit the cookie-cutter mould to be like them, then you were prey."
I wonder whether anyone has made that connection with how rough it can be for women in workplaces, how you can internalise that spite and hatred and bullying exhibited towards you and, if you already struggle with doubting yourself and being nasty to yourself, that compounding effect of other women doing it leaves you feeling totally numb and battling through wondering what you did/what you should do differently/why they hate you etc, and that can be sufficiently traumatising to prevent someone from feeling able to apply for or take on certain jobs, even if they might be otherwise interested or well-suited. And that it's a large factor in why many of us ultimately go freelance - that's certainly been the case of me, at least.
I absolutely think it comes down to the fact that it's really hard to be a women from day one, both in school and at work and even in social situations. So, for some women, it's a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality, and they turn into the bullies to stop being a target themselves.
Oh definitely, that's a big part of why I went freelance and, fortunately, I have only really met wonderful and supportive women since going out on my own!